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Nov 13, 2012
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look at speaker boehner, he's showing that we need to show leadership. we have to work with the president. they have the message and they'll respond appropriately and you'll see. >> that's very optimistic. i think, i degree with armstrong, the next few weeks whether they got the message or not. we have this big issue coming up with all of these fiscal issues and boehner a year and a half ago, when this came up the last time, he was basically whipped by the tea party wing of his party. so, the real question is, whether he's able to go back to that tea party link and say what armstrong just said, work with the president, some degree on compromise on taxes and raising revenues. i think it's an open question whether he can do that and whether he can succeed in doing that. >> gentlemen, thanks so much. i appreciate your time today. >>> stick around. up next, i got actor and activist ally sheedy waiting in the wings. she'll be with me in a second. >>> welcome back. tens of thousands are still in the dark after hurricane sandy. power crews in new york and new j
look at speaker boehner, he's showing that we need to show leadership. we have to work with the president. they have the message and they'll respond appropriately and you'll see. >> that's very optimistic. i think, i degree with armstrong, the next few weeks whether they got the message or not. we have this big issue coming up with all of these fiscal issues and boehner a year and a half ago, when this came up the last time, he was basically whipped by the tea party wing of his party. so,...
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Nov 14, 2012
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what the white house is saying and this matters for these negotiations, john boehner's position is he is open to revenue, but not if it includes increasing the top tax rate. he is only doing it through some mystery process of tax reform where you have a large amount of revenue, but still at 35% of the top tax rate or if boehner has his druthers, have a lower tax rate, maybe 28% as in simpson-bowles. the white house doesn't think the math will work out. they believe even when it can, you have to do such radical things like eliminating charitable deduction at the top brackets entirely, it wouldn't be worth doing if you could. their view, it is not a compromise to say in a future tax reform process you're going to get that money, they're not going to sign anything that doesn't include the top tax rate going up at the end of december. >> justin, you were in the room with the president today. can you confirm that quote that the huffington post has, i am not going to budge, i said in 2010 i'm going to do this once and i meant it? >> i actually don't remember if those are his exact words, an
what the white house is saying and this matters for these negotiations, john boehner's position is he is open to revenue, but not if it includes increasing the top tax rate. he is only doing it through some mystery process of tax reform where you have a large amount of revenue, but still at 35% of the top tax rate or if boehner has his druthers, have a lower tax rate, maybe 28% as in simpson-bowles. the white house doesn't think the math will work out. they believe even when it can, you have to...
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Nov 14, 2012
11/12
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boehner says the president has to say it. it may well be because the president has the upper hand on taxes and can do nothing which is what the congress is best at and have those taxes expire and come back and cut them on everybody but the top 2%, that may well be the strategy we end up with. the bigger thing that's not in this discussion that i find particularly disturbing is essentially this kind of a late consensus to use this fake crisis to focus on deficit reduction is highjacking the debate we ought to have on how to get this economy working for the vast majority of americans and how to get people back to work. we ought to be having that debate and they've got to push hard simply to get on the agenda. >> it's amazing a great point and shows why the president is not remotely progressive. he's having the debate totally on republican grounds as if they won. no no, no! we won! we won! we should be talking about jobs, increasing taxes. i'm not entered in $3 trillion in spending cuts. the republicans want that, good luck to y
boehner says the president has to say it. it may well be because the president has the upper hand on taxes and can do nothing which is what the congress is best at and have those taxes expire and come back and cut them on everybody but the top 2%, that may well be the strategy we end up with. the bigger thing that's not in this discussion that i find particularly disturbing is essentially this kind of a late consensus to use this fake crisis to focus on deficit reduction is highjacking the...
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Nov 16, 2012
11/12
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i want to say, tamron, that it was house speaker john boehner's birthday. president obama gave him a bottle of wine. >> kristen, you spoimed it. we were going to show that later. rats. really, kristen welker? >> caller: so, sorry. >> i have something else to ask you about. i'm just giving you grief. the civic meeting is taking place, the reverend al, the national action network, and he's meeting with civic leaders. is he prepares some on the letter r left for concessions or things they may not like that comes out of these negotiations? >> reporter: well, i think it's both. i think it's that he's trying to prepare some on the left for concessions. he's trying to build up really his strength to be able to put pressure on republicans to come to the table with him over taxes. president obama meeting with with union leaders early this week, also business leaders, so he's really trying to form a broad consensus, i think, to put pressure on republicans and democrats to get something done, to actually get something accomplished before that january 1st deadline. tam
i want to say, tamron, that it was house speaker john boehner's birthday. president obama gave him a bottle of wine. >> kristen, you spoimed it. we were going to show that later. rats. really, kristen welker? >> caller: so, sorry. >> i have something else to ask you about. i'm just giving you grief. the civic meeting is taking place, the reverend al, the national action network, and he's meeting with civic leaders. is he prepares some on the letter r left for concessions or...
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Nov 18, 2012
11/12
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. >> chris: president obama and speaker boehner sounding up beat friday about prospects for cutting a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff and we're back now with the panel. so, after the president and congressional leaders met at the white house, on friday, the rhetoric was reassuring, the question is, is it real? do you get any sense, bob and this is the subject of your new book, that they really do see, are beginning to see a path to a compromise or are they trying to reassure nervous consumers before the christmas holidays and, investors because the stock market is done a thousand points. >> everyone is nervous about this. this is the last chance and the next six weeks could be six weeks that shook the united states if they don't fix this. there clearly is a new mood but the way they'll solve this, is kind of hostage exchange, in other words, the republicans are determined not to let tax rates go up and the president is determined or is determined to get more revenue and, it is possible to do this and the president is going along, it seems, with it some idea of entitlement reform, that
. >> chris: president obama and speaker boehner sounding up beat friday about prospects for cutting a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff and we're back now with the panel. so, after the president and congressional leaders met at the white house, on friday, the rhetoric was reassuring, the question is, is it real? do you get any sense, bob and this is the subject of your new book, that they really do see, are beginning to see a path to a compromise or are they trying to reassure nervous...
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Nov 15, 2012
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house speaker john boehner was easily re-elected to the post on wednesday with the exception of one vote, texas congressman nominated former speaker newt gingrich. it would have been perfectly legal but no one seconded the nomination. his fellow texan congressman ron paul gave part one of the farewell speech as he prepares to retire at year's end. >> sadly, many religious groups, secular organizations and psychopathic authoritarians endorse government initiated force to change the world. >> national journal reports wisconsin congressman and former vp hopeful paul ryan will remain house budget committee chairman after being granted a gop waiver to avoid being term limited out of that spot. >>> senate majority leader harry reid lashed out at massachusetts senator scott brown mocking brown's calls for bipartisanship as a joke, describing brown as one of the most partisan senators ever to serve. >>> we now know which political office may be sought by another member of the bush family, george p. bush. his father, former florida governor jeb bush, confirms in a letter to potential donors that
house speaker john boehner was easily re-elected to the post on wednesday with the exception of one vote, texas congressman nominated former speaker newt gingrich. it would have been perfectly legal but no one seconded the nomination. his fellow texan congressman ron paul gave part one of the farewell speech as he prepares to retire at year's end. >> sadly, many religious groups, secular organizations and psychopathic authoritarians endorse government initiated force to change the world....
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Nov 17, 2012
11/12
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why did obama double the revenue target from 800 billion that he wanted in negotiation weise boehner, in 2011, why did he had less access. i think the question is billion than he was looking for before. this gives him a better starting point. i do think that both sides are going to try to work something out before the end of the year because they are all worried about the impact on the economy, not just in jab, but right now while you're watching the stock market and others negatively react to the fact that they are fearing this fiscal cliff. >> he must have known that this 1.6 trillion is a far more realistic number in the objectives. why didn't he mention >>> president obama will nominate susan rice as secretary of state. >> nope, he will back down. >> he won't back down. >> he will back down and not nominate her. >> he will
why did obama double the revenue target from 800 billion that he wanted in negotiation weise boehner, in 2011, why did he had less access. i think the question is billion than he was looking for before. this gives him a better starting point. i do think that both sides are going to try to work something out before the end of the year because they are all worried about the impact on the economy, not just in jab, but right now while you're watching the stock market and others negatively react to...
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Nov 13, 2012
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but moving ahead, speaker boehner was asked whether paul ryan would be the leader of the party. he referred to him as the wonky guy. what are we to make of paul ryan? >> he is the wonky guy. that was a dismissive comment that the speaker made. what he was trying to say is that he's coming back here, the same guy, as when he left. he's going to be a voice on certain issues, but he's not going to be a leader in the party. >> thank you very much. a pleasure having both of you on today. thank you. >>> coming up, john maca fee, he's wanted for questioning in the murder of his neighbor. details ahead. >>> and just moments ago, president obama finished meeting with labor leaders at the white house. how much leeway will the left give the president when it comes to medicare and social security? that's a question posed by our first read team. we'll check in with them. >>> plus what's being called one of the prison's prime gigs. what's a prime gig behind bars? it's just one of the things we thought you should know. [ forsythe ] we don't just come up here for the view up in alaska. it's the
but moving ahead, speaker boehner was asked whether paul ryan would be the leader of the party. he referred to him as the wonky guy. what are we to make of paul ryan? >> he is the wonky guy. that was a dismissive comment that the speaker made. what he was trying to say is that he's coming back here, the same guy, as when he left. he's going to be a voice on certain issues, but he's not going to be a leader in the party. >> thank you very much. a pleasure having both of you on today....
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. >> reporter: diane sawyer asked speaker boehner if you were now the leader of the republican party and his answer was, oh, i wouldn't think so, paul ryan is a policy wonk. >> i take that as a great compliment from john. >> reporter: is that your role now, position wonk? >> i've always been one of the house policy wonks my role is to continue to be a champion of ideas and help our party be the reform party. >> reporter: ryan says he unplugged in the days after the campaign. he didn't even hear the news about david petraeus' resignation or questions about its timing until later. instead, he was hunting and spending time with his family. >> you know, the great thing about this last weekend i got to go to both mire boys' basketball games and two of my daughter's volleyball games. >> reporter: an upside to losing. >> reconnection with my family which we're a close family. people got to see our family. i'm excited about getting back to work here. >> reporter: paul ryan's three kids all are in lemonade school and saw a big up side to losing. they get to stay in their school. they were wor
. >> reporter: diane sawyer asked speaker boehner if you were now the leader of the republican party and his answer was, oh, i wouldn't think so, paul ryan is a policy wonk. >> i take that as a great compliment from john. >> reporter: is that your role now, position wonk? >> i've always been one of the house policy wonks my role is to continue to be a champion of ideas and help our party be the reform party. >> reporter: ryan says he unplugged in the days after the...
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business community and friday, there's a meeting with harry reid, mitch mcconnell, house speaker john boehner and minority leader nancy pelosi. so, will we get a deal? one man getting a lot of attention is erskine bowles. who along with alan simpson created the simpson-bowles plan on deficit reduction. i have to start by asking you, did you ever think your name would be part of pop culture? you are the bowles in simpson bowles. >> better be simpson bowles than bowles simpson since everybody knows him by his initials here in washington. >> so, when you talk about things, sacred cows, untouchables, whatever the word might be, in your proposal, the one paul ryan decided not to back, the one barack obama decided not to back, you had an increase in the federal gasoline tax. caps on mortgage interest. charitable donations and retirement contributions. these were all tough choices you made. you also increased the eligibility age for medicare and social security. reduced benefits for wealthier seniors. some of those things i've heard democrats and republicans say they agree on, others they loathe the
business community and friday, there's a meeting with harry reid, mitch mcconnell, house speaker john boehner and minority leader nancy pelosi. so, will we get a deal? one man getting a lot of attention is erskine bowles. who along with alan simpson created the simpson-bowles plan on deficit reduction. i have to start by asking you, did you ever think your name would be part of pop culture? you are the bowles in simpson bowles. >> better be simpson bowles than bowles simpson since...
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Nov 15, 2012
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i get it i will get my mind right because i'm not going to buddy breathe with john boehner. you never know when he goes from lee marvin to tammy and starts sobbing openly. i'm not going to be the last guy stuck with this. i get it the country has changed. i'm all reporting for duty, sir. >> bill: so now you are going to tell me that you, dennis miller, are now giving up and are going to get in lock step with the secular progressives? >> have you ever seen the movie invasion of the body snatchers. go dead eye so they don't get hassled? that's me, man. [ laughter ] i got my -- i got my own thoughts when i'm out on the sidewalk dodging the sea pods. you are going to see this look. all right? that's exactly what you are going to see. billy, you think is a glitch. i think is a sea change. i don't think this comes back during my lifetime. i do think it comes back in the same way an alcoholic who has a brush with mortality will eventually come back. somebody will have a stroke or somebody will almost croak from alcohol will poisoning fiscally but maybe then we pull it back. this th
i get it i will get my mind right because i'm not going to buddy breathe with john boehner. you never know when he goes from lee marvin to tammy and starts sobbing openly. i'm not going to be the last guy stuck with this. i get it the country has changed. i'm all reporting for duty, sir. >> bill: so now you are going to tell me that you, dennis miller, are now giving up and are going to get in lock step with the secular progressives? >> have you ever seen the movie invasion of the...
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Nov 18, 2012
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. >> president obama and speaker boehner sounding upbeat friday about prospects for cutting a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff. we are back with the panel. after the congressional leaders and the president met at the white house on friday the rhetoric was reassuring. the question is is it real? do you get the sense, bob, that really do see or are beginning to see a path to a compromise are they they just trying to calm nervous investors because the stock market is going down a thousand points? >> everyone is nervous about this. this is kind of the last chance. the next six weeks could be six weeks that shook the united states if they don't fix this. there clearly is a new mood, but the way they are going to solve this is kind of hostage exchange. in other words, the republicans are determined not to let tax rates go up. the president is determined or is determined to get more revenue. and it's possible to do this. the president is going along, it seems, with some idea of entitlement reform that we are going to actually cut spending. but this is, you know, they are going to have to -- th
. >> president obama and speaker boehner sounding upbeat friday about prospects for cutting a deal to avoid the fiscal cliff. we are back with the panel. after the congressional leaders and the president met at the white house on friday the rhetoric was reassuring. the question is is it real? do you get the sense, bob, that really do see or are beginning to see a path to a compromise are they they just trying to calm nervous investors because the stock market is going down a thousand...
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the president's chief negotiating adversary right now, speaker john boehner who was re-elected by house republicans yesterday said they're not ready to accept the president's proposal because it would, quote, hurt our economy and make jobs more difficult. but he also sounded the kumbaya theme. >> now, i do think that the spirit of cooperation that you've seen over the last week, from myself and my team. from democrats across the aisle. from the president. have created an atmosphere where i think that, i remain optimistic. >> folks, there are a lot closer than sometime the bravadoish headlines seem to make clear. this is really about what can boehner take to 50 to 100 house republicans who are willing to temporarily potentially raise some tax rates on some group of wealthier americans? >>> by the way, after $6 billion spent on house senate and presidential campaign, not only did party control not change for the house, senate and white house. but the individual leaders who will begin the negotiations tomorrow, it's the exact group of people. there are some personnel changes but not on tha
the president's chief negotiating adversary right now, speaker john boehner who was re-elected by house republicans yesterday said they're not ready to accept the president's proposal because it would, quote, hurt our economy and make jobs more difficult. but he also sounded the kumbaya theme. >> now, i do think that the spirit of cooperation that you've seen over the last week, from myself and my team. from democrats across the aisle. from the president. have created an atmosphere where...
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and boehner would be well put not to try to cut a deal with obama but instead to say paul ryan's going to bring a solution to the fix, we're going to gather votes for it. i guarantee you, you'll get the right to have a democratic substitute. and if you can get enough republicans to vote for it, terrific. but they do not have an obligation to concede that the only mandate in washington is the president's. >> you're talking about chains hiring people for 29 hours. i'm hearing that from small business owners across pensacola. >> yeah. >> my own district. on election night i got three different e-mails from small business owners going it's sad -- and i said this on the air a couple days ago. they said i'm going to have to put these people on for less than 30 hours and i'm going to lose my best people. i can choose to do that or fire six, seven people because my margins are so small i'm fighting to keep my business open. >> you track the number of layoffs and closures in the first week since the election, it's sobering. and part of the reason we wrote "victory of yorktown" is say to people,
and boehner would be well put not to try to cut a deal with obama but instead to say paul ryan's going to bring a solution to the fix, we're going to gather votes for it. i guarantee you, you'll get the right to have a democratic substitute. and if you can get enough republicans to vote for it, terrific. but they do not have an obligation to concede that the only mandate in washington is the president's. >> you're talking about chains hiring people for 29 hours. i'm hearing that from...
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Nov 12, 2012
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how much does boehner speak for his conference, by the way? how much leeway does he have to cut a deal that might anger some conservatives? this weekend there were signs of softening among conservatives on the issue of taxes. here is "the weekly standard questions bill kristol sunday. >> it won't kill the country if we raise tax as little bit on millionaires. i don't understand why republicans don't take obama's offer to freeze taxes for everyone below $250,000, make it a million. the republican party is going to defend a bunch of millionaires, half who voted democratic and hatch live in hollywood. >> although tom price who is running to lead the house republican conference said sunday he is open to closing some tax loopholes, he did buck boehner on the issue of health care. >> question, do most house republicans, do you agree with speaker boehner that repeal of obama care with this election, with his re-election, is debt? >> we're not opposed to the president's health care law because of the election. we're opposed because it's bad policy and
how much does boehner speak for his conference, by the way? how much leeway does he have to cut a deal that might anger some conservatives? this weekend there were signs of softening among conservatives on the issue of taxes. here is "the weekly standard questions bill kristol sunday. >> it won't kill the country if we raise tax as little bit on millionaires. i don't understand why republicans don't take obama's offer to freeze taxes for everyone below $250,000, make it a million....
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. >> is speaker boehner ready to make a deal? >> the president convened a pow wow with leaders. >> the congressional leaders meeting at the white house today. >> begin negotiations about how to avoid that so-called fiscal cliff. >> fiscal cliff. >> this is the beginning of a fruitful process. >> the issue is taxes. >> only one bad word -- taxes. >> raising taxes is a very bad idea. >> raising taxes is a terrible idea. >> to show our seriousness, we put revenue on the table. >> we're prepared to put revenue on the table. >> a deadline. >> being able to work something out. >> there was a spirit of cooperation. >> tomorrow is speaker boehner's birthday. we didn't know how many candles were needed. ♪ best friend ♪ >> interrupting that was the ghost of christmas past. >> you guys are the best. thank you so much. >> mitt, 47%, romney. he is the gift that keeps on giving. >> republicans did not take kindly to mr. romney's words. >> i don't agree with the comments. >> we lost the presidency. it's time to move on. >> general petraeus
. >> is speaker boehner ready to make a deal? >> the president convened a pow wow with leaders. >> the congressional leaders meeting at the white house today. >> begin negotiations about how to avoid that so-called fiscal cliff. >> fiscal cliff. >> this is the beginning of a fruitful process. >> the issue is taxes. >> only one bad word -- taxes. >> raising taxes is a very bad idea. >> raising taxes is a terrible idea. >> to show...
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Nov 14, 2012
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that's the problem boehner had. if boehner had 35 safe republicans, safe from a primary challenge, safe from somebody from the right on taxes, i think this deal would have happened even a lot sooner. they might have gone ahead and passed parts of -- most of that bill that came through the senate. >> they have to schedule -- the thing about leadership is they have to schedule a bill. that's the tricky part. let's take a look at this. a very interesting moment in the press conference today, extremely interesting when president obama was asked about comments from his former opponent, john mccain, who made some nasty comments about susan rice, the united states ambassador to the u.n. and she may well be the head of the state department soon. here's the president responding in a very personal way. i thought this was really a moment here. >> let me say specifically about susan rice. she has done exemlary work. she has represented the united states and united nations with skill and professionalism and toughness and great.
that's the problem boehner had. if boehner had 35 safe republicans, safe from a primary challenge, safe from somebody from the right on taxes, i think this deal would have happened even a lot sooner. they might have gone ahead and passed parts of -- most of that bill that came through the senate. >> they have to schedule -- the thing about leadership is they have to schedule a bill. that's the tricky part. let's take a look at this. a very interesting moment in the press conference today,...
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by the way, boehner's word to gohmert after the vote, "louie, i love you too." >>> finally this one. after the election we heard certain ceos were threatening to fire employees if president obama won the election. some are going through with it. robert murray, ceo of the coal company that ordered employees to attend a rally with mitt romney, laid off 156 employees the day after the election. nice guy. john schneider, ceo of papa john's pizza chain, says he will be cutting employee hours to avoid costs associated with obama care. finally, john metz, ceo of several denny's franchises, says he will add a 5% surcharge to customers' bills to offset the cost of obama care. you don't want to pay extra, he suggests you simply tip the server less to offset the cost. what a sweetheart. >>> up next, new information on the affair that brought down cia director david petraeus. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. now back to "hardball." >>> back to "hardball." we now know the identity of that fbi agent, that tampa socialite jill kelley reached out to after receiving suspicious e-ma
by the way, boehner's word to gohmert after the vote, "louie, i love you too." >>> finally this one. after the election we heard certain ceos were threatening to fire employees if president obama won the election. some are going through with it. robert murray, ceo of the coal company that ordered employees to attend a rally with mitt romney, laid off 156 employees the day after the election. nice guy. john schneider, ceo of papa john's pizza chain, says he will be cutting...
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but expect it will be john boehner working along with the president. i'm sure mitch mcconnell will be very closely involved in the discussions with leader boehner. >> you don't believe a deal should come out of the senate and then be introduced in the house? >> well, i think the elections are over. we need to find solutions to help our country move forward in a positive direction and as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staffs says the biggest threat to our national security is actually our debt. we need to get this spending under control and get people back to work. >> i want to talk about this issue of taxes and tax rates and get you to respond to something from not exactly someone who is known as a liberal thinker here. take a listen. >> it won't kill the country if we raise tax as little bit on millionaires. it really won't, i don't think. i don't know why republicans don't take obama's offer to freeze taxes for everyone below $250,000. make it $500,000, make it a million. the republican party is going to defend a bunch of millionaires, half of w
but expect it will be john boehner working along with the president. i'm sure mitch mcconnell will be very closely involved in the discussions with leader boehner. >> you don't believe a deal should come out of the senate and then be introduced in the house? >> well, i think the elections are over. we need to find solutions to help our country move forward in a positive direction and as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staffs says the biggest threat to our national security is...
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Nov 15, 2012
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by the way, boehner's word to go mert after the word, louie, i love you, too. after the election, we heard certain ceos were threatening to fire employees if president obama wob the election. some are going through with it. bobt murray, ceo of the coal company laid off 156 employees the day after the election. john schneider ceo the papa john's pizza says he will be cutting employee hours to avoid costs associated with obama care. finally, john met, ceo of several denny's franchises says he will add a 5% surcharge to customers' bills to offset the cost of obama care. you don't want to pay extra, he said tip the server less to offset the cost. what a sweetheart. >>> up next, new information on the affair that brought down cia director david petraeus. you're watching "hardball," the place for politics. [ male announcer ] when was the last time something made your jaw drop? campbell's has 24 new soups that will make it drop over, and over again. ♪ from jammin' jerk chicken, to creamy gouda bisque. see what's new from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. >>
by the way, boehner's word to go mert after the word, louie, i love you, too. after the election, we heard certain ceos were threatening to fire employees if president obama wob the election. some are going through with it. bobt murray, ceo of the coal company laid off 156 employees the day after the election. john schneider ceo the papa john's pizza says he will be cutting employee hours to avoid costs associated with obama care. finally, john met, ceo of several denny's franchises says he...
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Nov 17, 2012
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house speaker john boehner says house speaker john boehner says he thinks they will have a solution before the end of the year. >>> and there are new details about the woman, jill kelley, at the center of the scandal that brought down general petraeus. as nbc's andrea mitchell reports jill kelley's connections went beyond the social elite and tampa, all the way to the white house. >> reporter: jill kelley and her twin sister met at the white house, touring it on november fourth november 4th, two days be general james november 4th, two days before general james clapper, the director of national intelligence was even told about the petraeus scandal. jill kelley mentioned the visit in an e-mail, saying i was at the white house with my friends in the administration this weekend. the stress was surreal. white house officials say the jill kelley sisters were invited by a staffer who may have met at the air force base. jill kelley was bipartisan in her outreach, she and her sister dropped in on a fundraiser for marco rubio two years ago, they did not pay, sources said, just arrived and soon left.
house speaker john boehner says house speaker john boehner says he thinks they will have a solution before the end of the year. >>> and there are new details about the woman, jill kelley, at the center of the scandal that brought down general petraeus. as nbc's andrea mitchell reports jill kelley's connections went beyond the social elite and tampa, all the way to the white house. >> reporter: jill kelley and her twin sister met at the white house, touring it on november fourth...